Last night, after I had turned in my entry to Blog Banter #40, I went to bed wondering about the state of the EVE blogging community. I had taken a brief break from blogging as I had become hyper-immersed in-game and needed to step back to tend to RL business.
I hate stepping away from the game and from writing, but I took solace in the fact that I would be able to keep up with current events thanks to EVE's robust meta-game. One of the reasons the EVE community in general (and the blog-o sphere in particular) is so strong is that when two or three or four of us take a break at the same time, there are still over 100 hundred blogs and EVE-related sites out there providing new content for our EVE-hungry brains.
What got me thinking last night was the arrival of TheMittani.com. and what sort of impact it would have on the Blog Pack. If you haven't seen themittani.com yet, please do go explore. It is an expertly produced source of EVE news and opinion, though as the name of the site might suggest, one that risks running afoul of editorial bias in the stories it runs.
My thought webs traveled roughly along the path of, "I wonder if Scaurus ever got around to putting up the August and September Ebees. Oh man, A Scientist's Life in EVE and Nash Kadavrr are retiring. That's two more legacy blogs on the Blog Pack stepping down. I wonder if some day this blog will become as well known as theirs. I wonder if we need the blog pack anymore, now that we have theMittani. Why go to 30 sites when you can go to one?"
I felt threatened by this thought when I had it. It was a fear that upon reflection revealed itself to be irrational.
In the end, I went to bed feeling positively encouraged about the state of the blog-o-sphere. Which was hilarious, because when I woke up this morning and starting reading over the blogs in my own particular feed, I found this at EVEOGANDA which had been inspired by this post at Malefactor.
Go ahead and read'em. I'll wait.
Now THAT'S a little spooky! One of the criticisms levied at the EVE blogosphere is that at times it resembles an echo chamber in that we all tackle the same topic at roughly the same time and that we all more or less agree with each other. It is true this happens occasionally, but the diversity of content and opinion occurring on our blogs daily pretty much renders the term "echo chamber" useless. Still, it is highly coincidental that there were at least two other bloggers thinking about this very topic over the last day or so.
There is a tendency in our community, and really in human nature, to be threatened by change. Over time we naturally settle into a comfort zone. We become comfortable because we become familiar with our environment and learn how to survive and thrive in it. Change is unfamiliar. A changing environment brings unfamiliar challenges, and even though we rise to meet those challenges time and again, their unfamiliarity makes them scary. Our greatest fears always stem from the unknown. I went to bed feeling good about the EVE meta-game landscape and my place in it, so what did I know?
Two things.
First, no matter how well done themittani.com or ANY site is, it will never be enough to satisfy the appetite the EVE community has for content. I can typically read through all of the content themittani has to offer on any given day in 30 minutes or less. I can then spend another 30 minutes sifting through all of the updates on the Blog Pack, and if I'm feeling REALLY desperate for more, head over to EN24 to see if there was anything else I had missed. I regularly visit evebloggers.com, and that's just for reading. If I know I'm going to have some extended downtime, I can download Lost in Eve, Podside, and other podcasts for listening while I'm away from the computer. It sounds like a lot, but I highly doubt I'm even half as voracious as many other members of the EVE community in my search for content.
Secondly, the issue of bias is one that every editorial site will be forced to mitigate, be they an aggregator or a solo endeavor. TheMittani has it, I have it, EN24 has it. We all have it. The only sites that can avoid such bias are those sites that have no editorial component to them whatsoever and instead are merely feed dumps such as evebloggers. In the quest to understand an issue, motivated readers are going to seek multiple viewpoints from multiple sources. For editorial sites that typically only run one piece on a particular issue at a time it means your visitors will come to you for your insights, but they're going somewhere else as well.
None of this touches on the competitive aspects of producing or hosting content, or the degrees to which new bloggers will be inspired to pick up their pens by the shifting metascape. These are yet further reasons to feel confident that the number of content sources aren't going to evaporate any time soon.
I take great delight in the fellowship that writing about and discussing EVE creates. And I find sweet relief in knowing the "One Ring" we feared was coming never will.
Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Wednesday, October 31, 2012
Not So Fast
You really didn't think I was going to let October draw to a close without saying anything, did you? Shame on you... :)
This entire month finds me in a place familiar to much of New Eden: a period of transition. How thoroughly apropos that it occurs coincident with the arrival of the American autumn.
Under ordinary circumstances this is my favorite time of year. The brilliant explosion of colors in the leaves, the brisk snap of chilled air at dawn and dusk. Heralds of the holiday season to come, a season spent in the warm company of family and lifelong friends.
This particular year, it marks a painful transition. One that has taken me out of the game for more time than I care to acknowledge.
Sparing you the gory details, suffice it to say that RL requires my attention. Which is absolutely devastating, because I've come to realize that my day-to-day interactions with my alliance-mates constitute a support network that is deeper and more complex that I had previously considered. These are my friends. My brothers (and sisters)-at-arms. My sounding board. My purpose and my satisfaction.
Yesterday, after not having logged in to comms for well over a fortnight, I signed in. I was greeted with the old familiar cheers, my mates celebrating my return with a healthy dose of ball-busting and good spirit. I could feel the rush in the back of my jaw, my pulse quickening, my eyes dilating. Like a heroin-addict deprived of his sticky brown sugar uncovering a long-forgotten score. I was home.
Logging into the game would have proved dangerous so I deferred, instead catching up with my friends and lobbing barbs as they were lobbed towards me. I never responded to BB39, asking us to define our home in New Eden because I never could answer that question to my own satisfaction. Consequently I never published an entry. Yesterday, I found out why. My relationships with these men and women may have begun with Eve, but they endure without her. Game or no game, it is within my friends that I make my home.
This isn't one of those grand, "I'm leaving the game. X up if you want my stuffs..." sign-offs. I will return to New Eden when my affairs on Earth are settled. The meta-game, and my participation in it, will go on. Eve...heh...she stays with you. And I miss her, after all. But if I'm really being honest, I miss my friends even more.
This entire month finds me in a place familiar to much of New Eden: a period of transition. How thoroughly apropos that it occurs coincident with the arrival of the American autumn.
Under ordinary circumstances this is my favorite time of year. The brilliant explosion of colors in the leaves, the brisk snap of chilled air at dawn and dusk. Heralds of the holiday season to come, a season spent in the warm company of family and lifelong friends.
This particular year, it marks a painful transition. One that has taken me out of the game for more time than I care to acknowledge.
Sparing you the gory details, suffice it to say that RL requires my attention. Which is absolutely devastating, because I've come to realize that my day-to-day interactions with my alliance-mates constitute a support network that is deeper and more complex that I had previously considered. These are my friends. My brothers (and sisters)-at-arms. My sounding board. My purpose and my satisfaction.
Yesterday, after not having logged in to comms for well over a fortnight, I signed in. I was greeted with the old familiar cheers, my mates celebrating my return with a healthy dose of ball-busting and good spirit. I could feel the rush in the back of my jaw, my pulse quickening, my eyes dilating. Like a heroin-addict deprived of his sticky brown sugar uncovering a long-forgotten score. I was home.
Logging into the game would have proved dangerous so I deferred, instead catching up with my friends and lobbing barbs as they were lobbed towards me. I never responded to BB39, asking us to define our home in New Eden because I never could answer that question to my own satisfaction. Consequently I never published an entry. Yesterday, I found out why. My relationships with these men and women may have begun with Eve, but they endure without her. Game or no game, it is within my friends that I make my home.
This isn't one of those grand, "I'm leaving the game. X up if you want my stuffs..." sign-offs. I will return to New Eden when my affairs on Earth are settled. The meta-game, and my participation in it, will go on. Eve...heh...she stays with you. And I miss her, after all. But if I'm really being honest, I miss my friends even more.
Wednesday, September 5, 2012
Terms and Limits
Well, here it be September and I hadn't said anything yet. Let's get to changin' that, shall we?
A thought occurred to me as I was preparing my post on the CSM minutes released several weeks ago. Ok, check that; a thought occurred to me while I was at work and thinking about what further editing I was going to do to my post on the minutes. I've actually had it written for a few weeks and have sort of let the whole thing simmer. Getting the BB37 Review and then my response to BB38 up in a timely fashion had something to do with that as well, but I digress...
No, I was considering the various viewpoints expressed by our delegates during the summit, and how each area of game-play had one or two corresponding representatives weighing in more often than others. The transcript format made this especially apparent as it highlighted which delegates became more vocal during sessions addressing specific aspects of game-play and which voices faded into the background. I found this extremely interesting and actually encouraging, as it demonstrated that certain entities representing certain power blocs weren't dominating the conversation as was previously feared. Well, ok, maybe a little, but not nearly as much as the doom-and-gloomers would have you believe.
As I was considering why this was so encouraging to me, I had to boil it down to the function each CSM was performing during the summit. In the end, these player-elected representatives are sent to Iceland and tasked with providing CCP the player perspective on all of the various elements of EVE. It was a task that most of the CSM performed admirably. In most cases, no one was "blatantly" pushing an agenda to the exclusion of other viewpoints, nor were they reluctant to raise an objection or voice an opinion when the situation called for it.
The thing that got me thinking was the experience driving each delegate's perspective. Well, that and the fact that somebody (not naming names) described 16-17 titans as "not that many." Despite the fact that the summit was largely agenda-less, that didn't prevent different delegates from honing in on some of their hot-button issues. And at times, these issues were beaten into the ground in discussions.
Again, in and of itself, that's not a big deal. It would be unreasonable to expect someone to accurately and fairly represent every single issue within the limited amount of time available during the summit sessions. There is a practicality issue there, to be sure. But two things worry me about the trajectory these examples suggest the CSM to be following. The first is the idea that next year, the same people will be beating the same hot-button issues into the same ground. And that is something that nobody wants. Not me. Not CCP. Hopefully not you, either.
The second is the fact that while we have several different playstyles and arenas of expertise represented, there is one that is noticeably absent: the itinerant, inexperienced capsuleer.
I spent my first two years in EVE bouncing around from opportunity to opportunity. I was in a highsec newbie corp, then moved to a major nullsec alliance. After a brief break from the game, I returned to the sov nullsec arena before leaving for a solo journey. From this solo journey, I (re)joined forces with some of the friends I had made from my very first days in New Eden as a scattershot corp based in highsec but with excursions into lowsec and nullsec. That lasted until I discovered my current corporation and alliance, and returned to sovereign nullsec where I am still flying today.
I was a gypsy for a long time in EVE before I found my home. I suspect it is the case for a lot of players out there as well. The wanderlust life appeals to many of us, no doubt, but nowhere is that style of play represented on the CSM. Sure, there are several reasons for this that have nothing to do with the way the CSM is run, most notably the fact that players who operate in relative isolation have a hard time consolidating enough votes to make a serious run for the council. But not only are these players not represented, the people elected to represent the rest of us are drifting further and further away from the "new player experience." And I'm not talking about the introductory tutorials.
One might make the case that having someone like Kelduum Revan on the council, someone who interfaces and works with new players everyday, would go a fair measure towards easing this disconnect. But I don't believe that goes far enough. Because in the end, you'd still be talking about someone who is years down the road from anything resembling the type of player he was elected to represent.
So, how do you prevent these scenarios from happening going forward? With regards to the first issue of a stagnant CSM, the obvious answer is term limits. And not just for players, but for the alliances they are a part of as well. It is the only way to ensure that the CSM does not become the personal sounding board for a particular player or alliance year after year after year. That's not to say players or alliances couldn't sit on the council for more than one term, but having that input and opportunity to interact with CCP for many years can only do more harm to the integrity of the CSM and EVE at large than good.
Now, there are two arguments against limiting CSM terms that you're likely to hear in any sort of debate on the matter. The first is that limiting terms prevents council members from accruing the experience necessary to have a meaningful impact on CCP during the delegation cycle. There are several reasons this is pure bullshit, but I'll only mention two here.
Firstly, there were a couple of stand-out delegates participating in this year's summit who had never been elected before, but who did an excellent job of giving feedback and input where necessary. Clearly experience was not necessary to deliver on what they were elected to do.
Secondly, one thing that jumped out at me from the first 30-ish pages of the minutes was that in several instances, some of the experienced CSM delegates were basically asking CCP to tell them what to do. In fact, there are a number of times when CCP Xhagen tells the delegates that what the CSM is asking CCP to decide for them is up to the CSM themselves! Experience, it would seem, is not a guarantor of wisdom.
The other argument that you're likely to hear regarding term limits is the idea that limiting terms somehow removes accountability from the delegates. And while logical on its face, this argument turns out to be yet another steamy mass of manure. Here's why:
First and foremost, CSM delegates do not act alone. They act in concert with one another to achieve aims and ends decided upon in advance of the summit. And they are accountable to one another. If a CSM acts in manner inconsistent with either the purpose of the Council or the code of conduct of a delegate, he can be removed by other Council members.
Additionally, even if a delegate went rogue and pursued a selfish agenda, 19 times out of 20 that selfish agenda is still going to benefit that delegate's constituents. And though it might not be the most productive way for a council member to proceed, it would still be performing the task the delegate was elected to accomplish.
So now that the veterans are sorted, what about the newbies? How do we ensure they are fairly represented and their voices are heard? The answer, again, is a term limit. But a term limit of a different sort.
Determining what constitutes a 'newbie' in EVE is fairly subjective, but it would be fair to say that any player with under a year's worth of game time would qualify. And that one-year mark would be where I would draw the line for anyone intending to represent the "new" players of New Eden. Anything over that and your "new pod" veneer has already begun to wear too thin, your veteran stripes emerging to the fore.
I do believe that a 'day one' player would not make an effective Council member. The issue isn't that they're not well-versed enough in EVE's idiosyncrasies to weigh in constructively. It's that they're not versed at all. A player with less than three months in the game is simply not going to know enough about EVE to be able to contribute on a meaningful level. So you need a lower bound as well as an upper one. A player with no fewer than three months in game and no more than one year strikes the right balance between freshness and depth of perspective.
These are opinions, of course, and as such are open to debate. And I invite you to participate in that debate, both in the Comment section of this blog and in the broader community. Because as EVE matures and the CSM grows in responsibility and stature, these issues are going to become increasingly important. And that is why we as a community need to start having the debates of tomorrow today. Else, we risk a problem we'll be unable to solve on our own terms.
A thought occurred to me as I was preparing my post on the CSM minutes released several weeks ago. Ok, check that; a thought occurred to me while I was at work and thinking about what further editing I was going to do to my post on the minutes. I've actually had it written for a few weeks and have sort of let the whole thing simmer. Getting the BB37 Review and then my response to BB38 up in a timely fashion had something to do with that as well, but I digress...
No, I was considering the various viewpoints expressed by our delegates during the summit, and how each area of game-play had one or two corresponding representatives weighing in more often than others. The transcript format made this especially apparent as it highlighted which delegates became more vocal during sessions addressing specific aspects of game-play and which voices faded into the background. I found this extremely interesting and actually encouraging, as it demonstrated that certain entities representing certain power blocs weren't dominating the conversation as was previously feared. Well, ok, maybe a little, but not nearly as much as the doom-and-gloomers would have you believe.
As I was considering why this was so encouraging to me, I had to boil it down to the function each CSM was performing during the summit. In the end, these player-elected representatives are sent to Iceland and tasked with providing CCP the player perspective on all of the various elements of EVE. It was a task that most of the CSM performed admirably. In most cases, no one was "blatantly" pushing an agenda to the exclusion of other viewpoints, nor were they reluctant to raise an objection or voice an opinion when the situation called for it.
The thing that got me thinking was the experience driving each delegate's perspective. Well, that and the fact that somebody (not naming names) described 16-17 titans as "not that many." Despite the fact that the summit was largely agenda-less, that didn't prevent different delegates from honing in on some of their hot-button issues. And at times, these issues were beaten into the ground in discussions.
Again, in and of itself, that's not a big deal. It would be unreasonable to expect someone to accurately and fairly represent every single issue within the limited amount of time available during the summit sessions. There is a practicality issue there, to be sure. But two things worry me about the trajectory these examples suggest the CSM to be following. The first is the idea that next year, the same people will be beating the same hot-button issues into the same ground. And that is something that nobody wants. Not me. Not CCP. Hopefully not you, either.
The second is the fact that while we have several different playstyles and arenas of expertise represented, there is one that is noticeably absent: the itinerant, inexperienced capsuleer.
I spent my first two years in EVE bouncing around from opportunity to opportunity. I was in a highsec newbie corp, then moved to a major nullsec alliance. After a brief break from the game, I returned to the sov nullsec arena before leaving for a solo journey. From this solo journey, I (re)joined forces with some of the friends I had made from my very first days in New Eden as a scattershot corp based in highsec but with excursions into lowsec and nullsec. That lasted until I discovered my current corporation and alliance, and returned to sovereign nullsec where I am still flying today.
I was a gypsy for a long time in EVE before I found my home. I suspect it is the case for a lot of players out there as well. The wanderlust life appeals to many of us, no doubt, but nowhere is that style of play represented on the CSM. Sure, there are several reasons for this that have nothing to do with the way the CSM is run, most notably the fact that players who operate in relative isolation have a hard time consolidating enough votes to make a serious run for the council. But not only are these players not represented, the people elected to represent the rest of us are drifting further and further away from the "new player experience." And I'm not talking about the introductory tutorials.
One might make the case that having someone like Kelduum Revan on the council, someone who interfaces and works with new players everyday, would go a fair measure towards easing this disconnect. But I don't believe that goes far enough. Because in the end, you'd still be talking about someone who is years down the road from anything resembling the type of player he was elected to represent.
So, how do you prevent these scenarios from happening going forward? With regards to the first issue of a stagnant CSM, the obvious answer is term limits. And not just for players, but for the alliances they are a part of as well. It is the only way to ensure that the CSM does not become the personal sounding board for a particular player or alliance year after year after year. That's not to say players or alliances couldn't sit on the council for more than one term, but having that input and opportunity to interact with CCP for many years can only do more harm to the integrity of the CSM and EVE at large than good.
Now, there are two arguments against limiting CSM terms that you're likely to hear in any sort of debate on the matter. The first is that limiting terms prevents council members from accruing the experience necessary to have a meaningful impact on CCP during the delegation cycle. There are several reasons this is pure bullshit, but I'll only mention two here.
Firstly, there were a couple of stand-out delegates participating in this year's summit who had never been elected before, but who did an excellent job of giving feedback and input where necessary. Clearly experience was not necessary to deliver on what they were elected to do.
Secondly, one thing that jumped out at me from the first 30-ish pages of the minutes was that in several instances, some of the experienced CSM delegates were basically asking CCP to tell them what to do. In fact, there are a number of times when CCP Xhagen tells the delegates that what the CSM is asking CCP to decide for them is up to the CSM themselves! Experience, it would seem, is not a guarantor of wisdom.
The other argument that you're likely to hear regarding term limits is the idea that limiting terms somehow removes accountability from the delegates. And while logical on its face, this argument turns out to be yet another steamy mass of manure. Here's why:
First and foremost, CSM delegates do not act alone. They act in concert with one another to achieve aims and ends decided upon in advance of the summit. And they are accountable to one another. If a CSM acts in manner inconsistent with either the purpose of the Council or the code of conduct of a delegate, he can be removed by other Council members.
Additionally, even if a delegate went rogue and pursued a selfish agenda, 19 times out of 20 that selfish agenda is still going to benefit that delegate's constituents. And though it might not be the most productive way for a council member to proceed, it would still be performing the task the delegate was elected to accomplish.
So now that the veterans are sorted, what about the newbies? How do we ensure they are fairly represented and their voices are heard? The answer, again, is a term limit. But a term limit of a different sort.
Determining what constitutes a 'newbie' in EVE is fairly subjective, but it would be fair to say that any player with under a year's worth of game time would qualify. And that one-year mark would be where I would draw the line for anyone intending to represent the "new" players of New Eden. Anything over that and your "new pod" veneer has already begun to wear too thin, your veteran stripes emerging to the fore.
I do believe that a 'day one' player would not make an effective Council member. The issue isn't that they're not well-versed enough in EVE's idiosyncrasies to weigh in constructively. It's that they're not versed at all. A player with less than three months in the game is simply not going to know enough about EVE to be able to contribute on a meaningful level. So you need a lower bound as well as an upper one. A player with no fewer than three months in game and no more than one year strikes the right balance between freshness and depth of perspective.
These are opinions, of course, and as such are open to debate. And I invite you to participate in that debate, both in the Comment section of this blog and in the broader community. Because as EVE matures and the CSM grows in responsibility and stature, these issues are going to become increasingly important. And that is why we as a community need to start having the debates of tomorrow today. Else, we risk a problem we'll be unable to solve on our own terms.
Wednesday, August 8, 2012
The Minutes
INB4 blogosphere gets swallowed whole by Inferno 1.2 discussions...
Holy Mother of Mercy. The CSM and CCP have finally agreed upon and published the minutes from the CSM summit held months ago, and after a full read and some re-reads of specific sections, here are my thoughts.
Holy Mother of Mercy. The CSM and CCP have finally agreed upon and published the minutes from the CSM summit held months ago, and after a full read and some re-reads of specific sections, here are my thoughts.
- We have finally returned to the state of things as they existed pre-Incarna. Players are more or less satisfied with changes coming down the pipe; no major new content this winter but a rework of some things players have been griping about for a long time. There is some grumbling; there's ALWAYS going to be grumbling. But at the very least there is no "OHGODOHGODWE'REALLGONNADIE!!!" making the rounds. None that is being taken seriously, anyways.
- That said, the current development cycle as outlined by the devs is a bit troubling. Disclaimer: pure speculation to follow...As it stands, we're currently on a trajectory in which resources that were supposed to be dedicated to EVE may end up re-purposed towards DUST514 in order to help get it off the ground when it launches. If that happens and EVE gets the 'temporary' backseat treatment it will mean we'll have successfully gone 18 months with little to no new content. With the focus mentioned on the Incarna prototyping being done at the moment it could be a full TWO YEARS before anything resembling a "true" content expansion is released. How's THAT for soon(TM)?
- It was mentioned at one point that there is no "Jesus Feature" planned for release until at least 2013. Ring mining at this point seems the most likely candidate. I don't necessarily have a problem with the one new content item being an industry one. If anything needs re-balancing, it's the allocation of New Eden's strategic resources. But being primarily a combat pilot. I want combat stuff. Admittedly, this is more me being petulant than anything else.
- It seems that EVE has settled into an expansion pattern of content in the summer, iteration in the winter. This summer's expansion would actually be an exception to that rule, but generally it holds. It makes sense given that EVE sees its largest drop-off in activity during the summer, when students are home from uni and families go away on holidays. Conversely, EVE sees its biggest surge of activity following expansions. Why not do everything you can to prop up those summer numbers?
- MASSIVE props to everyone who worked on preparing and editing the minutes. It was no doubt a tremendous undertaking. However the format of the minutes needs work. I truly DO appreciate the level of detail provided, as accountability is becoming an increasingly important issue with the CSM and will only become more important as time goes on. So the inclusion of a transcript will be a necessary evil, even if it does make the final document a bit unwieldy. However, a meaty outline at the head of each section would go a long way towards making the document more readable.
- I find it disturbing that CCP is still iterating and developing with an eye on the NEX store and RMT possibilities. I really just want this to go away completely. I understand that's not my decision to make, but all the same. The whole thing hangs over EVE like an ugly black cloud that just won't quite move on to the next town.
- There are some seriously pro-active members on the CSM, there are some grievously inactive members. I'm not here to name names or point fingers, but the document was extremely helpful in terms of figuring out who is who.
- Personal bias: there is a LOT more spitballing that takes place at these things than I previously realized. I think it's a great thing that people representing the players get to participate in this process, but it does highlight the importance of having a diverse delegation, as you need to be able to consider each individual area of the game from the proper perspective. I still hate reading the "Wouldn't it be awesome if..." stuff. I'd rather focus on what's in the game than what COULD be in the game.
- CCP Unifex seems to have a firm handle on balancing the game of EVE versus the business of EVE, and how to make use of the tools the CSM provides him. The more I read about what he has to say, the more I appreciate his approach.
- It was a little disturbing to see the CSM solicit CCP for guidance on how best to run the CSM. Not only do we now have delegates who have served multiple terms, but they are delegates serving on a PLAYER-RUN and PLAYER-APPOINTED council. I'd feel better if they were taking more initiative in setting up their own rules and regulations. I understand that CCP Xhagen has to approve everything, but this should be more of a rubber-stamp process than asking him to puppy-dog them through the process. You open the council up to SERIOUS abuse by CCP otherwise.
Sunday, August 5, 2012
Blog Banter 37: The Review
With Blog Banter 38 now up and running, it is time to call to close Blog Banter 37. After seeing A Scientist's Life in EVE do such a great wrap up of BB36, and in a bid to protect Seismic Stan's sanity for at least one more month, I thought I would heed the to call to review the 31(!) responses to this month's burning question!
Inspired by a series of events transpiring outside of the game, Stan posed the following question:
"EVE Online sits on the frontier of social gaming, providing an entertainment environment like no other. The vibrant society of interacting and conflicting communities, both within the EVE client and without, is the driving force behind EVE's success. However, the anonymity of internet culture combined with a competitive gaming environment encourages in-game behaviour to spread beyond the confines of the sandbox. Where is the line?"
Here's what New Eden had to say:
BB37: Do Unto Others!
Rixx Javix, proprietor of EVEOGANDA and leader of the Thukk You, Frill Me movement is first in line and opens his response with a bang. Invoking the Golden Rule and clarifying CCP's role in interpreting the application of that rule, Rixx's response is a brusque reminder that society, virtual or otherwise will tolerate only so much before turning you over to people who will make violating the EULA the least of your problems.
This Far, No Further...
Eve is Real. And in this reality, Confessions of a Closet Carebear paints a picture of a world that has both a light, positive side and a dark, negative one. He then applies the two to a concept termed the 'Eve Bubble' to create a loose framework for determining how far is too far, and for determining whether Eve is Real or Eve is Too Real.
Faking It
Nikolaj Vincent at Eve Stratics begins his entry with a consideration on the utility of EVE by discussing both the outlet for unhealthy behavior it provides and the social training ground it can be. By examining the juxtaposition of EVE against the backdrop of real life he creates a playfully interesting argument for why breaching the sandbox might not be such a terrible idea after all.
Grit in Your Guts
That faithful Kiwi at Aggressive Logistics raises the possibility that the line in question is in fact a moral one; a question of someone's character and belief system in equal measure. The futility of using this as a barometer for determining how much of what we do in-game is acceptable is discussed, before drawing a line of his own. Only this line isn't drawn in sand, but in flesh and blood.
The Line in the Sand
Kuan Yida at Random Posts from Auga also suggests that the line in question is moral in nature. He briefly describes his own personal code of ethics in our "troll's paradise" before outlining some specific examples of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Again we see the "in-game good, out of game" bad framework discussed in some detail.
Eve Is Full of Idiots
In what might be my favorite post title, Notes from New Eden sums up their sentiment perfectly while leaving the door open for exploration. They discuss how we're all idiots in EVE and how we're all equally wrong in some way or another. NNE also notes the uniqueness of Eve's tendency to blur the edges between it and real life and concludes that ultimately it is up to the the law of whatever land you live in to help you mitigate any threats the idiots may wish to inflict.
Drifting out of Touch
Aurelie at Emergent Patroller uses a deeply personal experience to teach us that meta-gaming and line crossing are nothing new in the world of Eve Online. She talks about her emotional reactions to those events to explore how irrational people justify irrational actions, as well as the precautions one can take to avoid becoming a victim. I'm trying hard to remain impartial here, but this has to rank among the most powerful responses to this crucial question.
It's All About Consequences
From Orakkus at 2nd Anomaly from the Left comes a thought-provoking piece on the "fictional" distinction between our in-game and out-of-game selves. He approaches the question from the angle of consequences, and how it is these consequences rather than the actions preceding them that define the line, as well as whether or not we've crossed it.
Lines in the Sand
Mara Rinn of Rinn's Rants begins her response by categorizing the pilots of New Eden as either "polite gamers" or "boundary-pushers", and uses this distinction to illustrate who really decides where the line is. She also considers CCP's perspective on the matter and imagines their response would be truly polarizing.
When Did it Get So Fuzzy in Here?
In his debut post, Morg Braktar discusses the moving target that is the "line" on his blog Quiet as a Morg. Morg reduces the line to its most basic existence inside each one of us before expanding his view outward towards the EVE community at large. Ultimately, he concludes the line exists only where we as a community commit to upholding it. E Pluribus, Unum, friends.
Where's the Line?
Anshu Zephyran of Structure Damage offers a concise yet insightful post regarding the definition of the line and the difference between in-game violence and out of game violence. For Anshu, it just so happens this magical persistence we adore in game is the very element that defines how far is too far.
The Line in the Mind
TurAmarth ElRandir of A CARBON Based Life takes a step back from the game and uses an instructive example from an overwhelmingly popular US television show to teach us that even though the line is vague and can be morally subjective, it is as internalized in us as our own conscience, and that Jiminy Cricket might have been on to something.
Don't Cross the Line
"Eve is real, they say. But how real can we allow it to be?" Virto Nex of Cannon Fodder begins. Virto narrows his gaze on the reality of EVE, in that it is merely an escape from the persistent reality we live and breathe every day. In pondering the interaction of the outlet EVE provides and the players that plug in, he considers the relationship between a player's actions and the consequences of those actions as well. Play nice, kids. We're all here for the same toys.
What Happens in New Eden Stays in New Eden
Lukas Rox of Torchwood Archives opens his response up with a brief thought on internet anonymity and how that skews behavior in the absence of perceived social consequences. As have other entries in this banter, Lukas acknowledges that CCP has their strict definition of where the line is, and uses a personal example to illustrate the fact that the players and CCP differ in their willingness to accept anomalous social behavior so long as the consequences for doing so aren't severe.
The Line in the Sand
When he tells you that the "line" as we've discussed it doesn't exist, you'd be forgiven for thinking that Splatus of A Journey Through the Mind was about to fall in line with many of the other banterers and tell you that the line was subjective. The trick up his sleeve is obvious when he explains why the line doesn't exist: we don't exist either. The rest is best explained by Splatus in this engaging and provocative response.
Cracked Rear View
Breaking with tradition, Ripard Teg of Jester's Trek weighs in on this particular blog banter with a glimpse into the DNA of EVE Online and MMOs at large. And just like any 'gudfite' in EVE Online, he's brought friends, most notably Aristotle. I'm assuming we're going to forgive him for naming his piece after a 'Hootie and the Blowfish' album, since he's Jester and he gets away with these sorts of things. ;-)
The Line
Kirith Kodachi of Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah briefly weighs in by eschewing the Golden Rule. Thinking he's drawn his line in the sand, he's shocked to discover it to be quicksand, and that he has himself fallen in...
A Line Removed
In this piece by Winterblink of Warp Drive Active we discover that the line has actually been stolen. A little bit of creative sleuthing reveals the true culprits, and why this game that is such a clever mix of "holyshits and whatthefucks" has driven us all to become such bloodthirsty bastards.
Shredding the Fabric
Corelin from Mad Haberdashers drops by to put in his two cents, citing the "John Gabriel Internet Dickwad theory" before pointing out that the line isn't as nebulous as people make it out to be. Good news, asshats; you're still in.
What Happens in New Eden Stays in New Eden
Morphisat, author of the aptly named Morphisat's Blog steps in and offers a brief summary of BB37 to that point. Suggesting a hard line, with a soft, chewy "spy" center, he summons the ghosts of Machiavelli before taking his leave.
Placement
A play in three acts, by Blastradius1 of Blastrad Tales. Act One: A sandbox, two players, and a disagreement. Act Two: John Q. Law, shades of white and black writ gray. Act Three: A penny turned, it's second side considered. The whole of EVE in perspective, windowlickers be damned.
A Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy
Drackarn of Sand, Cider, and Spaceships starts his way in Jita and winds his way throughout the rest of New Eden to show us that this game truly celebrates line-crossing in any number of forms we might personally find distasteful but that are accepted in aggregate. He also considers the notion that any line we had has been trampled to death by those fighting to get across it first.
The Matrix Has You
Eve is real. A Scientist's Life in Eve was there. In game and out, Eve is real. He considers the ramifications of that and defines where his own line stands in the process. And while you may run afoul of him in-game (I wouldn't, he'll blow you up), running afoul of the law is another matter entirely, in-game or out.
The Double-Edged Sword
Tommy Rollins of Rollin's Ride in Eve invites us to consider the duplicitous nature of Eve players as well as the line itself. Citing both soft and hard examples of that line, what truly fascinates Tommy is to what degree we players appreciate having two sides to choose from.
Human After All
Hans Jagerblitzen, current CSM delegate and author of Hans Shot First, calls into focus the grand social and psychological experiment that is EVE Online. In doing so he reminds us gently at first, then more directly that despite the environment that the game has created, it will never absolve the players who participate of accountability for their actions or the responsibility that comes with the very human ability to choose.
Trichotomous
I, Firstly, writing at Flying Silent, am the man behind this particular entry. In it, I attempt to devise a philosophical framework for defining the line, what falls within the boundaries of it, and what lay beyond. By examining what constitutes the game, the meta-game and the exo-game, Marvel as I confound and confuse before ultimately clarifying my position.
Morality Is a Social Contract
Adhar Khorin of Margin Call examines the line in the context of social contracts that exist both in-game and outside of it. They are indeed two separate contracts, with key differences between them that help us determine "good" from "bad."
Pandora's Sandbox
Host of the Blog Banter and author of Freebooted and Tech4News, Seismic Stan weighs in with his thoughts on the topic he originally proposed. Comparing the rabid fan-bases of both European football clubs and EVE Online, he demonstrates how passion and enthusiasm can turn ugly, regardless of the arena. He also considers the responses of those who have posted before him, seeing a reason to hope the EVE community might be able to transcend EVE's brutish reality.
Lines Don't Look That Great When Drawn in Sand
Evehermit, sole proprietor of Evehermit's Blog posits the existence of not just one line, but hundreds all equally valid. Taken together, they require a "flexible moral compass" on the part of the intrepid navigator. Failing that, he invokes the "Golden Rule" to help navigate the murky, sandy waters.
Bullying the Sandbox
In a living example of the very issue we set out to discuss, Sindel Pellion of Sindel's Universe posted a foul-mouthed, insightful essay on the topic, received some harsh feedback for her point of view, and took down her post within the span of about 24 hours. Whether this was a legitimate withdrawal, or an attempt to prove the point is open for debate. But if it was intended as an example; well done, Sin.
A long answer and a short one
Bringing Blog Banter 37 to a close is Jace Errata/Cobalt Snake of Year of the Snake. After spelling out the location of the line in terms of real-world consequences and declaring his position, he describes the EVE Universe as being populated by (to paraphrase) "raging douchebags inflicting raging douchebaggery on non-douchebags and douchebags alike." And with one final comment on the sandbox metaphor, he is off. And with that, so am I.
My many thanks to all of the participants of Blog Banter 37 and to Seismic Stan for giving me the opportunity to write and host its review. It is a large undertaking, but a truly rewarding one as I get to know each blogger and their point of view more intimately and reflect on their influence on my own. See you in BB38!
Inspired by a series of events transpiring outside of the game, Stan posed the following question:
"EVE Online sits on the frontier of social gaming, providing an entertainment environment like no other. The vibrant society of interacting and conflicting communities, both within the EVE client and without, is the driving force behind EVE's success. However, the anonymity of internet culture combined with a competitive gaming environment encourages in-game behaviour to spread beyond the confines of the sandbox. Where is the line?"
Here's what New Eden had to say:
BB37: Do Unto Others!
Rixx Javix, proprietor of EVEOGANDA and leader of the Thukk You, Frill Me movement is first in line and opens his response with a bang. Invoking the Golden Rule and clarifying CCP's role in interpreting the application of that rule, Rixx's response is a brusque reminder that society, virtual or otherwise will tolerate only so much before turning you over to people who will make violating the EULA the least of your problems.
This Far, No Further...
Eve is Real. And in this reality, Confessions of a Closet Carebear paints a picture of a world that has both a light, positive side and a dark, negative one. He then applies the two to a concept termed the 'Eve Bubble' to create a loose framework for determining how far is too far, and for determining whether Eve is Real or Eve is Too Real.
Faking It
Nikolaj Vincent at Eve Stratics begins his entry with a consideration on the utility of EVE by discussing both the outlet for unhealthy behavior it provides and the social training ground it can be. By examining the juxtaposition of EVE against the backdrop of real life he creates a playfully interesting argument for why breaching the sandbox might not be such a terrible idea after all.
Grit in Your Guts
That faithful Kiwi at Aggressive Logistics raises the possibility that the line in question is in fact a moral one; a question of someone's character and belief system in equal measure. The futility of using this as a barometer for determining how much of what we do in-game is acceptable is discussed, before drawing a line of his own. Only this line isn't drawn in sand, but in flesh and blood.
The Line in the Sand
Kuan Yida at Random Posts from Auga also suggests that the line in question is moral in nature. He briefly describes his own personal code of ethics in our "troll's paradise" before outlining some specific examples of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Again we see the "in-game good, out of game" bad framework discussed in some detail.
Eve Is Full of Idiots
In what might be my favorite post title, Notes from New Eden sums up their sentiment perfectly while leaving the door open for exploration. They discuss how we're all idiots in EVE and how we're all equally wrong in some way or another. NNE also notes the uniqueness of Eve's tendency to blur the edges between it and real life and concludes that ultimately it is up to the the law of whatever land you live in to help you mitigate any threats the idiots may wish to inflict.
Drifting out of Touch
Aurelie at Emergent Patroller uses a deeply personal experience to teach us that meta-gaming and line crossing are nothing new in the world of Eve Online. She talks about her emotional reactions to those events to explore how irrational people justify irrational actions, as well as the precautions one can take to avoid becoming a victim. I'm trying hard to remain impartial here, but this has to rank among the most powerful responses to this crucial question.
It's All About Consequences
From Orakkus at 2nd Anomaly from the Left comes a thought-provoking piece on the "fictional" distinction between our in-game and out-of-game selves. He approaches the question from the angle of consequences, and how it is these consequences rather than the actions preceding them that define the line, as well as whether or not we've crossed it.
Lines in the Sand
Mara Rinn of Rinn's Rants begins her response by categorizing the pilots of New Eden as either "polite gamers" or "boundary-pushers", and uses this distinction to illustrate who really decides where the line is. She also considers CCP's perspective on the matter and imagines their response would be truly polarizing.
When Did it Get So Fuzzy in Here?
In his debut post, Morg Braktar discusses the moving target that is the "line" on his blog Quiet as a Morg. Morg reduces the line to its most basic existence inside each one of us before expanding his view outward towards the EVE community at large. Ultimately, he concludes the line exists only where we as a community commit to upholding it. E Pluribus, Unum, friends.
Where's the Line?
Anshu Zephyran of Structure Damage offers a concise yet insightful post regarding the definition of the line and the difference between in-game violence and out of game violence. For Anshu, it just so happens this magical persistence we adore in game is the very element that defines how far is too far.
The Line in the Mind
TurAmarth ElRandir of A CARBON Based Life takes a step back from the game and uses an instructive example from an overwhelmingly popular US television show to teach us that even though the line is vague and can be morally subjective, it is as internalized in us as our own conscience, and that Jiminy Cricket might have been on to something.
Don't Cross the Line
"Eve is real, they say. But how real can we allow it to be?" Virto Nex of Cannon Fodder begins. Virto narrows his gaze on the reality of EVE, in that it is merely an escape from the persistent reality we live and breathe every day. In pondering the interaction of the outlet EVE provides and the players that plug in, he considers the relationship between a player's actions and the consequences of those actions as well. Play nice, kids. We're all here for the same toys.
What Happens in New Eden Stays in New Eden
Lukas Rox of Torchwood Archives opens his response up with a brief thought on internet anonymity and how that skews behavior in the absence of perceived social consequences. As have other entries in this banter, Lukas acknowledges that CCP has their strict definition of where the line is, and uses a personal example to illustrate the fact that the players and CCP differ in their willingness to accept anomalous social behavior so long as the consequences for doing so aren't severe.
The Line in the Sand
When he tells you that the "line" as we've discussed it doesn't exist, you'd be forgiven for thinking that Splatus of A Journey Through the Mind was about to fall in line with many of the other banterers and tell you that the line was subjective. The trick up his sleeve is obvious when he explains why the line doesn't exist: we don't exist either. The rest is best explained by Splatus in this engaging and provocative response.
Cracked Rear View
Breaking with tradition, Ripard Teg of Jester's Trek weighs in on this particular blog banter with a glimpse into the DNA of EVE Online and MMOs at large. And just like any 'gudfite' in EVE Online, he's brought friends, most notably Aristotle. I'm assuming we're going to forgive him for naming his piece after a 'Hootie and the Blowfish' album, since he's Jester and he gets away with these sorts of things. ;-)
The Line
Kirith Kodachi of Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah briefly weighs in by eschewing the Golden Rule. Thinking he's drawn his line in the sand, he's shocked to discover it to be quicksand, and that he has himself fallen in...
A Line Removed
In this piece by Winterblink of Warp Drive Active we discover that the line has actually been stolen. A little bit of creative sleuthing reveals the true culprits, and why this game that is such a clever mix of "holyshits and whatthefucks" has driven us all to become such bloodthirsty bastards.
Shredding the Fabric
Corelin from Mad Haberdashers drops by to put in his two cents, citing the "John Gabriel Internet Dickwad theory" before pointing out that the line isn't as nebulous as people make it out to be. Good news, asshats; you're still in.
What Happens in New Eden Stays in New Eden
Morphisat, author of the aptly named Morphisat's Blog steps in and offers a brief summary of BB37 to that point. Suggesting a hard line, with a soft, chewy "spy" center, he summons the ghosts of Machiavelli before taking his leave.
Placement
A play in three acts, by Blastradius1 of Blastrad Tales. Act One: A sandbox, two players, and a disagreement. Act Two: John Q. Law, shades of white and black writ gray. Act Three: A penny turned, it's second side considered. The whole of EVE in perspective, windowlickers be damned.
A Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy
Drackarn of Sand, Cider, and Spaceships starts his way in Jita and winds his way throughout the rest of New Eden to show us that this game truly celebrates line-crossing in any number of forms we might personally find distasteful but that are accepted in aggregate. He also considers the notion that any line we had has been trampled to death by those fighting to get across it first.
The Matrix Has You
Eve is real. A Scientist's Life in Eve was there. In game and out, Eve is real. He considers the ramifications of that and defines where his own line stands in the process. And while you may run afoul of him in-game (I wouldn't, he'll blow you up), running afoul of the law is another matter entirely, in-game or out.
The Double-Edged Sword
Tommy Rollins of Rollin's Ride in Eve invites us to consider the duplicitous nature of Eve players as well as the line itself. Citing both soft and hard examples of that line, what truly fascinates Tommy is to what degree we players appreciate having two sides to choose from.
Human After All
Hans Jagerblitzen, current CSM delegate and author of Hans Shot First, calls into focus the grand social and psychological experiment that is EVE Online. In doing so he reminds us gently at first, then more directly that despite the environment that the game has created, it will never absolve the players who participate of accountability for their actions or the responsibility that comes with the very human ability to choose.
Trichotomous
I, Firstly, writing at Flying Silent, am the man behind this particular entry. In it, I attempt to devise a philosophical framework for defining the line, what falls within the boundaries of it, and what lay beyond. By examining what constitutes the game, the meta-game and the exo-game, Marvel as I confound and confuse before ultimately clarifying my position.
Morality Is a Social Contract
Adhar Khorin of Margin Call examines the line in the context of social contracts that exist both in-game and outside of it. They are indeed two separate contracts, with key differences between them that help us determine "good" from "bad."
Pandora's Sandbox
Host of the Blog Banter and author of Freebooted and Tech4News, Seismic Stan weighs in with his thoughts on the topic he originally proposed. Comparing the rabid fan-bases of both European football clubs and EVE Online, he demonstrates how passion and enthusiasm can turn ugly, regardless of the arena. He also considers the responses of those who have posted before him, seeing a reason to hope the EVE community might be able to transcend EVE's brutish reality.
Lines Don't Look That Great When Drawn in Sand
Evehermit, sole proprietor of Evehermit's Blog posits the existence of not just one line, but hundreds all equally valid. Taken together, they require a "flexible moral compass" on the part of the intrepid navigator. Failing that, he invokes the "Golden Rule" to help navigate the murky, sandy waters.
Bullying the Sandbox
In a living example of the very issue we set out to discuss, Sindel Pellion of Sindel's Universe posted a foul-mouthed, insightful essay on the topic, received some harsh feedback for her point of view, and took down her post within the span of about 24 hours. Whether this was a legitimate withdrawal, or an attempt to prove the point is open for debate. But if it was intended as an example; well done, Sin.
A long answer and a short one
Bringing Blog Banter 37 to a close is Jace Errata/Cobalt Snake of Year of the Snake. After spelling out the location of the line in terms of real-world consequences and declaring his position, he describes the EVE Universe as being populated by (to paraphrase) "raging douchebags inflicting raging douchebaggery on non-douchebags and douchebags alike." And with one final comment on the sandbox metaphor, he is off. And with that, so am I.
My many thanks to all of the participants of Blog Banter 37 and to Seismic Stan for giving me the opportunity to write and host its review. It is a large undertaking, but a truly rewarding one as I get to know each blogger and their point of view more intimately and reflect on their influence on my own. See you in BB38!
Wednesday, August 1, 2012
Back to Basics
Logging on last night found me completing a host of administrative duties for our new alliance, followed by some indulgent scanning for something to do/shoot and later a strat op on behalf of the coalition. During the form-up for the fleet, an alliance mate convo'd me and asked if I'd keep an eye on him during the op as he was new and didn't have a firm handle on everything we'd be doing. I cheerfully agreed, and kept a vigilant eye on our chat window in case he had any questions.
Ultimately, he arrived a little late for the party, with the fleet standing down right as he got into position. I wasn't about to chastise him as he's a newer player and just now getting situated in our new area of operations. I was thrilled he took the time to make sure he got a ship set up that would be consistent with our objectives and that he was enthusiastic about supporting the alliance and coalition at large.
He was a little disheartened about not having the chance to do so, however, and asked instead if anyone wanted to 1v1 for fun-sies. I asked what kind of ships he had available and after figuring out what I had that would be a relatively even match, undocked and warped to a safe. After teaching him how to add fleet members to the watch list, he warped to me as did one other corp-mate interested in a bit of sparring and stress-testing.
As he was in warp, our budding young combat pilot asked me if I wouldn't mind sharing some of my PvP knowledge with him, as this is the area of the game he is most interested in. I was happy to oblige and we began the discussion by talking about the importance of dictating ranges, tackling, and speed. My corp-mate continued the discussion by discussing some common tactics to be used around gates and the like. Having gone well past my bedtime I logged off for the evening, feeling a little dissatisfied with my advice.
It wasn't that I felt the topics covered weren't important or that the advice given wasn't useful, but I felt fairly sure that I could have done a much better job with the time we had. I've just never been in the instructional role beyond answering one-off questions in corp or fleet chat.
Experience is the single biggest factor in a PvP pilot's skill progression, and I made sure to emphasize that. But in those rare moments of down time, I'd like to be able to offer more effective assistance to those taking the initiative to learn. So I'm asking all of you for help.
If you have any advice to offer in terms of effective "learning plans," I would truly appreciate your assistance. I've never been a member of Eve University or Agony Unleashed, so I don't have any experiences to draw on in that regard. Anyone who does, by all means, is welcome to share any teaching insights they may have gained.
I will thank you in advance for your time and advice. As will all of the new pilots I have the great fortune to work with going forward.
Thanks again, New Eden.
Firstly
Ultimately, he arrived a little late for the party, with the fleet standing down right as he got into position. I wasn't about to chastise him as he's a newer player and just now getting situated in our new area of operations. I was thrilled he took the time to make sure he got a ship set up that would be consistent with our objectives and that he was enthusiastic about supporting the alliance and coalition at large.
He was a little disheartened about not having the chance to do so, however, and asked instead if anyone wanted to 1v1 for fun-sies. I asked what kind of ships he had available and after figuring out what I had that would be a relatively even match, undocked and warped to a safe. After teaching him how to add fleet members to the watch list, he warped to me as did one other corp-mate interested in a bit of sparring and stress-testing.
As he was in warp, our budding young combat pilot asked me if I wouldn't mind sharing some of my PvP knowledge with him, as this is the area of the game he is most interested in. I was happy to oblige and we began the discussion by talking about the importance of dictating ranges, tackling, and speed. My corp-mate continued the discussion by discussing some common tactics to be used around gates and the like. Having gone well past my bedtime I logged off for the evening, feeling a little dissatisfied with my advice.
It wasn't that I felt the topics covered weren't important or that the advice given wasn't useful, but I felt fairly sure that I could have done a much better job with the time we had. I've just never been in the instructional role beyond answering one-off questions in corp or fleet chat.
Experience is the single biggest factor in a PvP pilot's skill progression, and I made sure to emphasize that. But in those rare moments of down time, I'd like to be able to offer more effective assistance to those taking the initiative to learn. So I'm asking all of you for help.
If you have any advice to offer in terms of effective "learning plans," I would truly appreciate your assistance. I've never been a member of Eve University or Agony Unleashed, so I don't have any experiences to draw on in that regard. Anyone who does, by all means, is welcome to share any teaching insights they may have gained.
I will thank you in advance for your time and advice. As will all of the new pilots I have the great fortune to work with going forward.
Thanks again, New Eden.
Firstly
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)